PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

from PDF attachment, case2 is very interesting. LH did not budge for the first 2 attempts but HPG was restored on the 3rd attempt also note heavy dosage of HCG.

Case 2: 5'10" 184 lbs 36 yr old Caucasian male with a 2 yr history of
continuous nandrolone use (200-400 mg/wk). Pre-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 45 ng/dL. Treat 1
(32 days): 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (8 total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and arimidex (1 mg qd).
Post-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 38 ng/dL. Treat 2 (60 days): 5,000 IU hCG every 4 days (4 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (4 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen
(10 mg qd). Post-values: LH > 1.4 IU/L, T 63 ng/dL. Treat 3 (32 days): 5,000 IU hCG qod (6 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG qod (6 inj total) given simultaneously with menotropins 150 IU
qod (6 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen (10 mg bid). Post-values: LH 9.8 IU/L,
T 507 ng/dL. Restoration of the HPG axis, even in severe cases of hypogonadism, is possible
with combined therapies and careful monitoring of the patient. With continued popularity of
these drugs, long-term androgen deficiency is a health concern for former AAS users. Further
research is needed in this area.

I agree, that is very promising. Has anyone here actually tried this combination of drugs at this dose before? Would be so wonderful if it worked!

yes.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=356

see top recovery.

Maybe we are having two effects.

First we suffer from direct effects of the drug low 5 ARs or low DHT or estrogenic effect on hypothalamus area what ever it is then over time body produces 5 AR back but we continue to suffer b/c our body is stuck with low LH and FSH. I have talked to some guys on hairlosstalk.com who took fin / Spalmetto and suffered from ED but their value were not down. Over time they recovered but people with hypo gonadal values have very slim chances of recovery. We do not know wether their 5AR has returned to normal and now they need to kick start their HPTA.


In many studies SP has been found weak 5 AR inhibitor and does nothing for hairloss or prostate compared to fin. It is mostly used in bust enhancer products for ladies or used by tranxsectual people (sorry for my bad english) to grow their boobs. It all indicates it is very potent estrogen.
Now both propecia and SP give the same side effects, may be because of not 5 AR but b/c of estrogenic effects they exert in our hypothalamus area, causing low LH and FSH.

please read
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/02phytosterols.htm

If one inspects the structures of the estrogenic sterols, one can see a striking similarity of the skeletal structures of these compounds with the structure of the synthetic estrogen diethylstilbestrol".
The sterol estrogens were found to be of the highest order of estrogenic activity, followed by the coumestrols and then the isoflavones.


SPS

Good post Striken.

2nd update from Killswitch after the following was asked:


Quote:
Killswitch... are you still on TRT?

I recall you posted a long time ago about trying the gel and recovering... are you still on it or have you since discontinued and recovered naturally?

It sounds like you are almost back to normal, just wanting to know if its due to TRT, or time (and how long, if so).


His reply:

"I am feeling good these days.I only stayed on the TRT for 4-5 months.My libido is good although not what is was but I am 36 now and must attribute some of that decline to age.

I definitely feel it helped but also time I am sure played a huge part."



I am surprised Killswitch attibutes his recovery to TRT? I used Androgel for 10 weeks aproximately and still think that was very big mistake after SP since it shrank my testes and caused a lot of water rentension. It did nothing other than delaying my recovery (whis is very very small or nothing)
how you can recover using TRT, it is like saying you recovered by using setroids?

striken-

perhaps it suppressed his endocrine system entirely and it then restarted.

see this post: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3654&p=21952#p21952

Some people from steroids dont necessarily need PCT to recover, the same way most people do not need anything to recover from finasteride.

You seem to keep asking about restarts, or clomid, or nolva - on this or other boards such as meso - so, if you are actually hypogonadal, stop asking and just do it. This will truly answer your curiosities.
if you cannot get the proper drugs from your endo, find them online. Then, do one of the protocols outlined in the pdf attached earlier in this thread titled scally_aih_abstracts-1.pdf. I am not trying to be rude to you, but this will be the end-all of your questions, and just DOING it will end you from having to prolong this ongoing internal struggle - and hopefully alleviate your anxieties of whether or not its going to work and get you back to normal.

Problem is WE ARE WORSE OFF THAN STEROID USERS. Rarely do they seem to get ed let alone our myriad symptoms even if they become hypogonadal post use and in that case TRT works for them.
Maybe if you do something right away it might help a la labrea but I doubt a restart is going to work if you are many months or more off the drug.

What do you make of this:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3684

Happy for him but I dount herbs will help for the severe non-sexual sides, I don't know.

He didn't use herbs for his core cycle. He used herbs for PCT. He used a product called H-drol, which is a precursor of the steriod, Halodrol. He resurpressed his system and then restarted again, correctly. It's kind of intreging, despite the used of steriods....

I did use a Halodrol Clone called H-Drol. While I was on it my agression and masculinity felt like it was back, however I still had ED. It was only after I had completed the 6 weeks on H-Drol and after the 4 weeks on the Inhibit-E which is and ATD Estrogen suppressant(which is known to have libido suppressing qualities itself) that I started getting erections and my testicles are full and drawn up closer to my body. The "Herbs" you speak of were ran concurrent to the Inhibit-E and ran an extra 2 weeks beyond it to help keep T levels going up.

I'm not sure if I suppressed my HPTA so much that it had nothing left to do but reset or whatever but I function and get nocturnal erections about once or twice a week. I can get an erection everytime I try and have sex. I have also noticed that my hair is still not falling out like it was pre-fin though. Though while on H-Drol it does thin more and fast due to the raised levels of T.

I just got laid off so as soon as I am working again I will get more bloodwork done. I also want a fertility test done too. I know that my FSH levels and my 3AdiolG levels were both scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Good luck to anyone else trying this. Just be sure to take Hawthorne berry and lots of water if you're going to do this cycle. Another thing... H-Drol was legal untill about 2 months ago. So if if you are going to buy it you'll need 2 bottles and it is still for sale on Amazon.com and other supplement site. You'll have to hurry.

Keep me updated guys.

I wish I had done the same asking practice prior SP. Actually I did some online search for possible side effects for SP sides but nothing turned out but lies, lies and lies song full of praise for SP as though God sent herb. Indeed after some research I think B-sitosterole is the main cause for low virility for many young males in N-america. It is widely used in margerine ,cosmetics and cholestrol lowering products. if you google it's chemical structure you will see it is very close to dutesteride I wonder if Merk has copied it.
read this

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/02phytosterols.htm

If one inspects the structures of the estrogenic sterols, one can see a striking similarity of the skeletal structures of these compounds with the structure of the synthetic estrogen diethylstilbestrol".
The sterol estrogens were found to be of the highest order of estrogenic activity, followed by the coumestrols

also
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7570607

The phytoestrogen beta-sitosterol alters the reproductive endocrine status of goldfish.

Abstract
There is a growing awareness that chemicals in the environment may function as hormone mimics and affect endocrine function in wildlife. In this study, the effects of beta-sitosterol, a phytoestrogen present in high concentration in bleached kraft pulp mill effluent (BKME), on reproductive fitness of goldfish were investigated. Plasma reproductive hormone levels were measured in male and female goldfish on Day 4 following two intraperitoneal injections of beta

clomid or Nolvadex treatment

After going on differet forums I am sure our problem is not that simple. some poeple tried clomid but after few months they were back to the same old level of T.
I am sure our problem can not be fixed with present medicine unless there is new research and new midicines untill then we have to live like CDnuts ,trying diffferent herbs and patches.

ok, great. whatever you want to do. don't do any treatments. just eat healthy then. I do not disagree our issues are certainly complex.

but the fact is there are several people that do some type of form of medicinal treatment that positively impacts them as long as they intervene early enough after fin cessation. either hcg, tamoxifen, clomid, arimidex, scaredinmd's pro-hormone compound, whatever. you can find as many studies as you want on margarine, soy, sterols, fish and mice as you want - but your not going to change that fact that you took the saw palmetto (or us fin) and the sooner you intervene and get your self out of the hypo-gonadal state that you will probably be better off. Not all of these men are cured, but they are better.

JG, labrea, scaredinmd, galapagos, etc.

You can do this intervention and eat healthy like cdnuts if you want too, but he isn't exactly saying he is healed, is he? no. So why not do both. Why not do every possible thing towards recovery as soon as you can? Anything else is foolish.

Cheers.

Have you done any thing? I am already on a very thin line and scared I will screwup more. I thought many times about clomid but scared of possible side effects.

I don't know if I'll ever say I'm healed 100%. Knowing what this did to our bodies and knowing how I feel now, and how I used to feel, well, 100% does seem tough. That being said, I am a completely different person than I was two years ago and the progress I have made is great. I can have sex when I want, my erections are of good quality, etc, etc. The real difference started when I went on my T boosting regimine. It was like night and day.

If you're gonna mention guys that healed themselves, you can't forget to mention Japanther, who healed himself from completely debilitating brain fog by going on a 100% raw food diet. No medications at all. Everyone can do the same, but the diet is the most difficult thing on the planet. Literally.

Despite all of this I think that some form of medical intervention right after cessation of fin probably would have been of benefit to most of us. The more I learn about the endocrine system and how it operates as a "closed system", the more I understand this. Also, from my own perspective on the raw food diet, even though many neurological things cleared up, the hormonal stuff still lingered. This lends credence to the "closed system' approach.

I think given enough time on the diet things would eventually clear themselves up. For instance it took Japanther almost a year being raw before he posted his recovery. The hormonal stuff would keep nudging itself in the right direction, but it would take probably a bit longer. Nobody wants to wait, and nobody wants to eat raw, so we have the current situation that most guys are in. Even myself couldn't maintain the raw diet for more then three months without cavinig. It works, if you can do it.

the raw food diet might not have had anything to do with it.. He may have just recovered naturally on his own...

Yeah, and propecia is a vitamin and is good for the immune system. The raw food diet had everything to do with it. Don't know why it's so hard for some people to believe.

ScaredinMD,

First off, congratulations on your success. I know what you must have been through, so I am very happy for you. Hopefully things still are as they should be.

I am thinking about going through the same regimen as you did. Indeed, I already ordered the H-Drol, on account of your saying that the product is no longer legal and might run out. However, I do have a few questions before I get started:

- Do you remember what your testosterone levels were prior to taking the H-Drol? I understand that your FSH and 3AdiolG levels were very low, but what about testosterone itself?

- So you said that you took six weeks of the H-Drol, then six weeks of Blue Up combined with four weeks of Inhibit-E. However, you also mentioned Hawthorne berries, multivitamins, and some other post mentioned tongkat ali. What if anything was your regimen with those

- Anything noteworthy about your exercise program? Anything else I should know?

Thank you so much, and again, congratulations.

Going over the pdf...What would be a good dose of Clomid and timeframe to do this?