PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

Thanks for updating your story. Are you taking any meds/supplements?

You seem to have some medical background/connection. Are you trying to get somebody to have a deeper look at our condition?

Hello again,

I do not think you need to log your every day events on here. Right now I do log how i feeel every day in a text file on my computer. It ios very usefull cause now I am trialing some stuff.

You talk about the feeling that we have is like high estrogen and a problem with the androgen receptor. After all my experements this is what I feel.

It seems like the effects of estrogen are over poweing the effects of androgens. I do not know the mechanisim why. I have had pretty good recoveries taking two types of anti estrogens. But they did not last, I mean some of the effects seems to last but not the libido effect.

I think you should experment with this. Lots of people have had temp recoveries with anti estrogens. But only a few seem to still be able to hold the results. Robocopp and enden.

I know how you feel with the panic attacks. I really think this is from the excessive influence of E2 on our cells.

As for the receptor iossue. A year ago I tried high doses of testosterone. I actually grew more chest hair and hair around my nipples and seemed to have lost hair on my head. This seems to indicate that the receptors do work. I also got some bad acne on high doses of testosterone. I rekon my e2 was sky high.

I am thinking of trying high doses of test again with aromasin. I mean if I am growing hair that must mean something. In regards to msucles I do not remember much of a change in that department.

Hi Vincentv,

Thanks, yes I will update it not so often. Yes, E2 and the ratio seems to e the biggest Problem.
I still have some improvements, so I want to wait with aromatase inhibitors. I just seem them as a band aid. ..and yes yes some AR seems to be ok, but dont forget, we have 2 kinds of 5AR.
1 you find mostly on the head and skin and 2 is mostly on in the genitals and genital skin. (anyway i wonder now wy fin should help there with hairloss) So, what introduces the build up of 5AR? It´s T. But Why we have 2 Kinds of 5AR??? than we must have also 2 kinds of DHT. Or do i see that wrong? Im very sure it´s a kind of Androgenresistenz. E2 makes just more problems even for the thyroidgland.

@ N. Star:

Yes, I do take many supps, I do it on try and error. But I dont take any meds.
I do have medical backround and some good connections. I found atm 3 docs and 1 scientist, who want to help. We are trying to make a moleculargenetic study..but more for a possible treatment. I think the Problem is clear.

The problem is clear? please elaborate..

Ok, to make it short.

Just have a look at all the Labs, tests and studys. Than have a look at the symptoms and timeline. Also have a look of the treatments. Just one word, Androgenresistenz. Compare it to diabetis typ 2 or adrenal fatigure. But this is not the Theorie treat. so please dont diskus here.
Just for the people, who say, no way this cant be. My AR are working, my beard grows and stuff like that. Ask youself, why we have 2 kinds of 5AR and just know one kind of DHT? Why all the Time T goes up, most people get worst. It´s the E2 that causes more Problems togehter with the missing action of the DHT at the cells.

update:

Like always, I had my ups and down along the day. Sometimes I feel very weak and like I´m 100years old. But I also have some Improvements.
The Prostata pain is gone, I dont have to piss all the time, my Libido seems to be at 70% back.
Hairloss went back to prefin. Bread grows faster, didnt realized it was not so fast. Most of the time nocturals, Sleep is better, I feet totaly fit, when i wake up. Some muscels are coming back. But penis still shrunken and Ed...that sucks..But its strange even when it´s smal, I´feel a bit more like a man again. Keeping myself very activ and the mind away of this Problems makes all a bit better for me.

Here are my new Labs from 9.5.2012
I can not belive that, I never have seen something like that before, the Doc, from the Lab called me and asked what is wrong with me. They checked the Test twice.

24/H Urin:

Krea in Ur.-----------------0,6 g/l-------0,8-2,0

DHEA----------------------42,7 ug/g----5,8-32,0
Androstendiol---------------49,5--"------3,8-19,7
Androstendion---------------3,7---"------3,3-11,4
Androsteron-----------------16,6--"------15,4-41,4
Eticholanon-----------------15,8---"------7,9-20,2
Testosteron-----------------17,8---"------1,1-4,5
DHT-------------------------8,1----"------6,6-19,9
Androstanediol---------------76,2---"------11,6-57,3
5AR Aktivity------------------1,0 Ratio-----0,3-0,9!!!!
Estron (E1)-------------------233,5--------9,1-23,1
Estradiol (E2)----------------9278,7--------24,9-81,1
Estriol(E3)-------------------132,6---------6321-28360
Estriol Quotient----------------0,0Ratio-----73,2-523
All Estrogens 9644,7 ug/g Kreatinin


This Lab is realy weird!!!

Something interfering with the assay?

Antibodies Against Testosterone In Patient’s Serum: A Problem for the Laboratory and the Patient


Anti-DHT antibodies or anti-5aR antibodies etc would be my favourite theory at the moment.

That,

is intense. I have little idea how to read those results but it looks like both your testosterone and estradiol (e2) are way out of range. Any plans to retest for these values in specific?

Such high T..... Androgenresistenz

Then why isnt your LH high or your serum T high? This is a problem with the test you had because the result is different.

Because, the Serum Test is old and you always have higher Rates in 24/H you cant compare it.
I did some serum Test 4 Days later....But that Idiot of a Doc did not E2. Just the normal shit..I hope I get the Labs on monday.

The 'ranges' themselves arent important. We are discussing one test way out of range and one in the lower end of the bracket from the same patient (albiet not at the same time).

Therefore arent there two logical conclusions?;

1. You are pissing out more testosterone than you should. 'hypo-excreting', though theres no mention of any such phenomena in the text books. Although hypogonadism has been induced in genetically modified rats this way.

2. Something is interfering with the urine test. Likely the urine test uses a slightly different immunoassay method than serum leaving it susceptible to interference (like from antibodies - see above).

It has already been noted that 24hr urine assays posted on this forum do tend to show much higher results than the blood tests, (which tend to be low).

if this is anti-bodies problems can we take any immunosuppressant and if feel better then go for the lab again to see if readings are normal?

we dont have a antibody problem.

Update:
After a week of apstinence I only wanted to.... I just can say, my sperm look very very normal like prefin. Hope I dont crash after this. Wish me luck!

how you can be so sure that it is not anti bodies problem?

update:

yeah, had no crash after yesterday. My extrem hairloss after fin, def. went back to prefin. My lil friend is more sensitiv and I get some muscles back. Most of the time shrunken and hard. But sometimes nearly normal again. I added 15mg Zink to my supp´s. My lowerbackpain returend but now its a strange warm feeling sometimes. Panikattacks are gone.

you are taking supplements so you don't know if your body's response is natural or induced by these supps.