PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

Forum for men with PERSISTENT sexual, mental & physical side effects which CONTINUE DESPITE QUITTING Finasteride (Propecia, Proscar), a 5AR inhibitor drug for hair loss, prostate enlargement & prostate cancer.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:47 am
Posts: 53
Age: 34
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 12 years
Started: 01 Mar 2000
Stopped: 15 Dec 2011
Location: South Africa
0) Where are you from (country)?

South Africa

1) How did you find this forum (Google search -- if so, what search terms? Via link from a forum or website -- if so, what page? Other?)

Google

2) What is your current age, height, weight?

Age:34
Height: 1.9meters / 6 foot 3
Weight: 88kg / 194lbs

3) Do you exercise regularly? If so, what type of exercise?

Do exercise regularly - weight training and yoga, mainly Bikram

4) What type of diet do you eat (vegetarian, meat eater, raw, fast-food/organic healthy)?

Healthy eater, no red meat, mainly veggie with chicken and fish.

5) Why did you take Finasteride (hair loss, BPH, other)?

Hair loss

6) For how long did you take Finasteride (weeks/months/years)?

Just under 12 years.

7) How old were you, and WHEN (date) did you start Finasteride?

Feb / March 2000, I was 21 years old.

8) How old were you when you quit, and WHEN (date) did you quit?

December 2011, I was 33 years old.

9) How did you quit (cold turkey or taper off)?

Tapered off, not intentionally, just became weary of using it every day.

10) What type of Finasteride did you use – Propecia, Proscar, Fincar or other generic?

Started with name brand Propecia, then generic proscar tablets (cut) and finally a combination of these and generic Dutasteride.

11) What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)?

Overall I'd say between 1 and 2mg of finasteride per day, eventually alternating days between 0.5mg of Dutasteride and the Finasteride dose. Some days I doubled Fin and Dut, but very few.

12) How long into your use of Finasteride did you notice the onset of side effects?

There were side-effects throughout the usage period, but I (inexplicably) never made the connection between them and Finasteride use. There were first real signs of trouble in late 2010, then in 2011 the effects were undeniable, and by 2012 I was actively trying to resolve them.

13) What side effects did you experience while on the drug that have yet to resolve since discontinuation?

Put an X beside all that apply:

Sexual
[X ] Loss of Libido / Sex Drive
[X] Erectile Dysfunction
[ ] Complete Impotence
[X ] Loss of Morning Erections
[X] Loss of Spontaneous Erections
[X] Loss of Nocturnal Erections
[ ] Watery Ejaculate
[ ] Reduced Ejaculate
[ ] Inability to Ejaculate / Orgasm
[ ] Reduced Sperm Count / Motility

Mental
[X] Emotional Blunting / Emotionally Flat
[ ] Difficulty Focusing / Concentrating
[ ] Confusion
[X] Memory Loss / Forgetfullness
[X] Stumbling over Words / Losing Train of Thought
[X] Slurring of Speech
[X] Lack of Motivation / Feeling Passive / Complacency
[ ] Extreme Anxiety / Panic Attacks
[X] Severe Depression / Melancholy
[ ] Suicidal Thoughts

Physical
[X] Penile Tissue Changes (narrowing, shrinkage, wrinkled)
[X] Penis curvature / rotation on axis
[X] Testicular Pain
[ ] Testicular Shrinkage / Loss of Fullness
[X] Genital numbness / sensitivity decrease
[ ] Weight Gain
[X] Gynecomastia (male breasts)
[ ] Muscle Wastage
[X] Muscle Weakness
[ ] Joint Pain
[ ] Dry / Dark Circles under eyes

Misc
[ ] Prostate pain
[X ] Persistent Fatigue / Exhaustion
[ ] Stomach Pains / Digestion Problems
[ ] Constipation / "Poo Pellets"
[ ] Vision - Acuity Decrease / Blurriness
[ ] Increased hair loss
[X] Frequent urination
[ ] Lowered body temperature

[ ] Other (please explain)


14) What (if any) treatments have you undertaken to recover from your side effects since discontinuation of the drug?

After seeing an Endocrinologist a few months back, he diagnosed me with secondary hypogonadism and put me on restart protocol of Clomid and Letrazole. I'll outline the results below.

15) If you have pre or post-Finasteride bloodtests, what hormonal changes have you encountered since discontinuing the drug (pls post your test results in the "Blood Tests" section and link to them in your post)?

I went from having very high levels of testosterone, to an endocrine system crash after stopping Finasteride, and finally to full-blown hypogonadism.

16) Anything not listed in the above questions you'd like to share about your experience with Finasteride?

See below.

17) Tell us your story, in your own words, about your Finasteride usage and side effects experienced while on/off the drug.

I'm a long-time lurker on these forums and this is my first post. It's a familiar story: I started taking Finasteride in 2000 as I was very concerned about hair loss. It continued for my entire twenties until the end of 2011, aged 33. Finasteride was effective at slowing the hair loss, but Dutasteride was a revelation for me, resulting in a significant amount of regrowth.

In 1999, pre any drug use, I partook in a medical trial with a dozen other guys where our Testosterone levels were examined. I don't have a record of the exact value, but I do remember my total testosterone was more than double the nearest next participant and off the upper end of the reference range.

I had various symptoms during the usage period that I never associated with Finasteride, such as gyno, memory loss, loss of train of thought and a few sexual "no-shows", but not enough to warrant concern.

In 2010 there were the first few signs of real trouble. Sexually, I wasn't as "big" or potent as before. In early 2011 this got worse and I had my first episodes of a sexual "disconnect" - a terrifying sensation of being disconnected from my penis. It would become a lifeless, cold appendage with little sensation or reaction to manual stimulation. The closest comparison I could draw would be to running into the icy waters of the Atlantic, only much worse. There was also constant "contraction" of penis and testicles which was very concerning. I could still get an erection and orgasm, but my penis size and strength was definitely reduced to about 60%. I also experienced severe depression around this period.

At some point in mid-2011, I finally made the connection to Finasteride and ran some searches online. I was staggered by what I found: people were having similar issues and their list of symptoms and descriptions were identical: memory loss, gyno, loss of energy, depression, libido decrease and that strange sexual "disconnect" sensation.

For the first time in December of 2011, I had my testosterone tested. My result came back as low / borderline. See all results here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7543&p=0&e=0

Wanting to avoid any further chemical intake, I sought a natural alternative to "restarting" my system. I increased weight training and adjusted my diet with the intention of increasing testosterone. I also supplemented with Tongkat Ali, L-Arginine, L-Cartinine etc.

I re-tested in Feb 2012 before starting my natural recovery period, and again in September 2012 after these efforts. Unfortunately, my testosterone result afterwards was identical. It was at this point that I decided to see a professional.

My endrocrinologist ran a series of physical checks before viewing my blood work, declaring me to be in outstanding physical health. I largely attribute this to a long-term Bikram Yoga practice, weight-training and a healthy diet. After viewing my latest results (September 2012), he said that my Testosterone was abnormally low for my age, and after seeing my LH and FSH levels stated: "Well, there's your diagnosis. Secondary Hypogonadism. Your testicles are not being stimulated." He also told me that my Cortisol and DHEA levels were too low and Estrogen too high.

He prescribed Clomid and Letrazole, explaining that the Clomid would help the brain produce LH and FSH, which in turn would stimulate the testicles to produce testosterone, and the Letrazole would help contain the resultant increase in Estrogen.

I stalled on beginning the protocol as I was concerned about taking more medication. In the weeks that followed, my energy levels and sexual potency continued to decline. Eventually, in November 2012, I felt like a 90 year old man with virtually no energy or strength. I decided to have my testosterone tested one more time before deciding whether or not to start the protocol. My result came back as shockingly low (see November 2012). I took my first Clomid tablets that same day.

His prescription was 50mg of Clomid, twice a day for 21 days, with 2.5mg Letrazole once a day for this period. One week off after this and then follow-up bloodwork 48 hours after the off-week. I followed the protocol religiously. The first week on the protocol was horrendous. I'm not sure if it was the drugs themselves or a continuation of the downward spiral I was already on before taking them, but I suspect it was a bit of both. From the second week I started to feel improvements. My energy improved, gym sessions improved, blood flow seemed to be returning to my genitals, and there was a sexual "tingling" sensation there that I had almost forgotten about. It wasn't the instant 180 turnaround I was hoping for, but I certainly felt like I was on the road to recovery.

I did experience side-effects while on the drugs, but very little and none that overly concerned me. There was some facial flushing at various points, occasional slight increase in heart rate, mild acne in the beginning which soon calmed down. Most unusual was an occasional tingling "pins and needles" in my legs while in the shower. Again, this was only on occasion and not severe enough to cause concern. I did also started sprouting a few hairs on my back (!). And yes, the hair loss did seem to increase a bit.

I'm now at a few weeks after ending the protocol on the 20th of December 2012. I seemed to improve the most at the end of the off week. I'm aware that these results might only be temporary, but for now the positive results that seem to have maintained are: sexual improvements i.e. bloodflow to the penis, feeling of sexual "electricity" in that area again, morning wood. I haven't had the "disconnect" feeling since starting Clomid. Testicles are larger and firmer. Penis size has improved, but is definitely still not there yet. Energy levels and muscle tone are significantly improved. Depression is gone, but had largely improved after stopping Finasteride anyway.

So overall, it's not a 100% recovery yet, but factoring in both lethargy and sexual issues, I'd say that before the Clomid protocol I was operating at 30%, and now I'm at about 70-80%.

Again, here is all my blood work, including before and after Clomid:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7543&p=0&e=0

Basically, my total testosterone has more than tripled. Estrogen still seems pretty high though. I will update this thread in a few months with new results to see if the numbers have "stuck".

Here are some personal conclusions. Again, they're just my thoughts on the matter, not presented as fact.

1) For me, Post-Finasteride Syndrome is a very real phenomenon. I would strongly urge anyone considering taking these drugs for hairloss to reconsider their choice as they clearly interfere with the delicate balance of the hormonal system. Having experienced both hair loss and the deliberating effects of a hormonal crash, I would say that while both are awful, I choose vitality, potency and life over hair.

2) That said, the fear mongering around PFS on the web is also real. I feel it is premature and irresponsible to use the word "permanent" when describing the side effects at this stage. "Persistent" feels like the appropriate word. In my experience, PFS can be treated. While I don't suggest that a Clomid restart protocol is appropriate for everyone, it seems to be working for me. The side effects were negligible and the measurable results for me have been dramatic. Whether they stick or not, is of course another issue.

3) Overall, staying as healthy as possible seems to be a major component to treatment and recovery. I believe that my positive response to the treatment is both because my Secondary Hypogonadism was medicinally induced, (not "naturally" occurring), and because my physical condition is excellent otherwise.

4) There's no substitute for professional insight. Try seek out an Endocrinologist who is young, technically savvy, and has an air of being open to constant learning. My doctor was a veritable fountain of knowledge and completely open to discussion and my input.

Again, I'll update with a new hormonal profile and observations in a few months. Any questions, please ask.

All the best


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:50 am 
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 8:10 pm
Posts: 1381
Age: 36
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 9 years
Started: 15 Aug 2003
Stopped: 05 Apr 2012
Location: New York
Hi and welcome to the forum. I am happy you have turned from lurker status to poster status as it is incredibly important to share your experiences with all of us who have suffered and continue to suffer the effects of this drug. I am like you, 9 years on the drug and didnt notice the subtle little changes. Went off the drug and had a hormonal crash also diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism. I, like you, have been in a holding pattern with regards to treatment. I noticed you experienced penis curvature and muscle loss. Did your legs regain size and mass on this protocol? Keep us updated on how you are doing and I encourage you to be an active participant in these forums. You seem extremely positive and trust me we need more of that around here.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:10 am
Posts: 152
Age: 44
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 10 months
Started: 0- 5-2011
Stopped: 0- 6-2012
Location: US, Ohio
Good post. It's nice to hear of your improvements, and I hope you are able to maintain them. I would take a 70-80% improvement any day. Please keep us posted in the weeks / months to come.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:47 am
Posts: 53
Age: 34
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 12 years
Started: 01 Mar 2000
Stopped: 15 Dec 2011
Location: South Africa
Thanks guys...

Re: the legs muscle / mass. I feel like the Clomid just raises your testosterone and it's up to you to make the most of that while it's happening. If you're considering the protocol, my suggestion would be to try clear your workload and reduce your general stress as much as possible for the protocol period. Eat well, sleep well and hit the gym as hard as you're able to during the period. I did weight-training, so I'd say that the gym plus the testosterone increase via Clomid was responsible for the muscular improvements i.e. Clomid didn't just spontaneously grow muscle on its own. I've been neglecting legs at the gym a bit (common mistake) so while they are improved, most of the muscle gains are upper body at the moment. Gyno is completely gone, good separation in the chest etc.

Just to add about the protocol: the first week was terrible, especially in terms of lethargy, second week I felt much better, third better still, and by the fourth week, the off-week, I was starting to feel like I was approaching my old self again. So I'd say if you're going to do it then commit to get through any rocky first stretch, within reason of course. I also kept a daily diary to track the changes. Try find a good Endo so that this is all is above board. There are so many moving parts with this stuff, it gave me peace of mind to know that I had a professional in my corner who knew all the details of my case.

All the best


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:44 am
Posts: 90
Age: 54
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 13 yeas
Started: 0- 0-1998
Stopped: 0- 6-2011
Location: Denmark
Good post nice to hear


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:10 am
Posts: 152
Age: 44
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 10 months
Started: 0- 5-2011
Stopped: 0- 6-2012
Location: US, Ohio
Legendary,

I noticed the discussion of your improvements did not include changes in libido or ED, both of which you checked as initial symptoms. Can you update us on how / if the Clomid helped in these areas?

I too was recommended Clomid by a Urologist last year, but chose to wait things out in hope of a more "natural" recovery. However, he did not mention a supplemental drug to manage a potential rise in estrogen.

Thanks and good luck.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:49 pm
Posts: 1117
Age: 28
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 2 Years
Started: 01 Mar 2010
Stopped: 25 May 2012
Location: Ireland
Hi Legendary,

Can I ask you if you suffered from frequent urination and if so did the protocol help with that problem ?

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Please give what you can to the Post Finasteride Syndrome Foundation.
http://www.pfsfoundation.org/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:47 am
Posts: 53
Age: 34
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 12 years
Started: 01 Mar 2000
Stopped: 15 Dec 2011
Location: South Africa
Mark2012 wrote:
Hi Legendary,

Can I ask you if you suffered from frequent urination and if so did the protocol help with that problem ?


Hi there, I did suffer with that while on Finasteride, but it resolved itself after I stopped taking the drug. That was about a year before I started the protocol, so I can't credit Clomid with clearing that up. All the best


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:47 am
Posts: 53
Age: 34
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 12 years
Started: 01 Mar 2000
Stopped: 15 Dec 2011
Location: South Africa
OhioGuy wrote:
Legendary,

I noticed the discussion of your improvements did not include changes in libido or ED, both of which you checked as initial symptoms. Can you update us on how / if the Clomid helped in these areas?

I too was recommended Clomid by a Urologist last year, but chose to wait things out in hope of a more "natural" recovery. However, he did not mention a supplemental drug to manage a potential rise in estrogen.

Thanks and good luck.


Hi, both libido and strength of erections have improved, but I still don't feel I'm firing at at 100%, I'd say they're at about 70-75% at the moment which is still a big improvement (pre-protocol we're talking about 30%). I am concerned that letting myself stay at such a low testosterone level for so long while I weighed up my options may have affected size and stength of erections, but the contraction and disassociation thing hasn't happened since the protocol, so that is a very positive sign.

It took a long time to do this damage to the nethers, so I'm hoping that libido and erections will continue to improve and I just need a period of "rehabilitation" to get things back to 100% again . Will keep you posted, all the best


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:10 am
Posts: 492
Age: 26
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 3 months
Started: 0- 8-2012
Stopped: 0-10-2012
Location: USA
How are you doing?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:02 am
Posts: 2771
legendary wrote:
OhioGuy wrote:
Legendary,

I noticed the discussion of your improvements did not include changes in libido or ED, both of which you checked as initial symptoms. Can you update us on how / if the Clomid helped in these areas?

I too was recommended Clomid by a Urologist last year, but chose to wait things out in hope of a more "natural" recovery. However, he did not mention a supplemental drug to manage a potential rise in estrogen.

Thanks and good luck.


Hi, both libido and strength of erections have improved, but I still don't feel I'm firing at at 100%, I'd say they're at about 70-75% at the moment which is still a big improvement (pre-protocol we're talking about 30%). I am concerned that letting myself stay at such a low testosterone level for so long while I weighed up my options may have affected size and stength of erections, but the contraction and disassociation thing hasn't happened since the protocol, so that is a very positive sign.

It took a long time to do this damage to the nethers, so I'm hoping that libido and erections will continue to improve and I just need a period of "rehabilitation" to get things back to 100% again . Will keep you posted, all the best

Clomid will never fix your problems. I am surprised at naivety of people here. They are dumb seriously. Just a simple search on this forum can show you how many have tried this Clomid protocol with failure already, some with more damage. No matter how much Clomid you ues, you will come down again in few months, maybe worse than before. Few members here have very good Testosterone level yet still suffering. Also some idiots start shouting, congratulating right away without any knowledge. These are foolish boys. if you are so sure about Clomid the why don't you try this on your self? Stop this moronic reaction.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:10 am
Posts: 492
Age: 26
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 3 months
Started: 0- 8-2012
Stopped: 0-10-2012
Location: USA
You can disagree with what someone is doing without being rude.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:47 am
Posts: 53
Age: 34
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 12 years
Started: 01 Mar 2000
Stopped: 15 Dec 2011
Location: South Africa
Hi all,

It's time to do an update on where things are with the Clomid restart protocol for Finasteride-induced Secondary Hypogonadism.

Quick aside: I'm posting this stuff to share my experiences in the hope that it may help others. That's it. I'm not claiming to be an expert or have found the ultimate solution for anyone's problems. Please don't use my thread to vent your frustrations, thanks.

Quick recap: I used Finasteride for 12 years and developed Secondary Hypogonadism as a result. Late last year I visited an Endocrinologist and started treatment. We ran a series of checks to exclude the possibility of a pituitary tumour. He then prescribed me with Clomid and Letrazole to monitor how / if my body responded to treatment. The results were significant, with a jump from 7 to 25 total testosterone and 167 to 614 for free testosterone. Please see the previous posts and labs for the full story.

So I did the protocol, tested a week later and visited him for a follow-up a month or so after that to discuss my options moving forward. The guy is as close to a genius as I've met and I feel very lucky to have found him. Here are some take-aways from that follow-up:

1) The first Clomid / Letrazole cycle was just to see if / how I responded to treatment. It was unlikely to reset everything permanently in three weeks. That's unrealistic.

2) Using Clomid without an aromotase inhibitor like Letrazole is pointless and is why some people claim to have had little results using it, especially regarding sexual state. Reason given by my endo is that when your T shoots up, your E shoots up as well. If E goes too high your brain shuts off testosterone production as a safety mechanism. That's what will happen if you use Clomid alone.

3) He advised me to lose fat and build muscle to get E down. Less yoga (which I already do) and more weightraining. E lives in the fat of the body.

4) My DHEA is still too low so he advised me to supplement. He recommended a specific brand that uses micronised DHEA. PM me if you'd like more info on this. He suggested that the DHEA supplementation would make a dramatic difference to how I felt. (He was right.)

5) For various reasons, he felt that measuring DHT or Thyroid was a pointless exercise, since it didn't give a clear indication of what was happening inside the cell. He explained that serum levels are not the full story, the real point of interest is what's happening inside the cell.

6) My E should be below 90 pmol / L

7) Cortisol should be between 300-400 nmol /L

8) DHEA should be 12-14 umol /L

9) He asked if I had experienced nipple sensitivity, as this is indicactive of high E. (I haven't)

10) He believes that after a 6 month cycle, as outlined below, we will be able to ween me off the protocol with the hope that my body will take over.

11) I am lucky to be responding to treatment, since many PFS sufferers do not respond to normal treatment for secondary hypogonadism.

12) We discussed using a stronger aromotase inhibitor to get my E levels lower, but in the end decided on the following protocol for the next 6 months:

Clomid - x2 50mg per day, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.
Letrazole - 2.5mg per day, throughout the entire period.
DHEA - 50mg (of the uber micronised formula) per day, throughout period.

Before starting, I decided I wanted to test and see how much my levels had dropped off in the couple months since stopping Clomid. My Endo didn't ask me to do these tests as he indicated that after just one cycle the levels would come down and we would need a longer protocol for a restart. As many others have reported, after one cycle of Clomid many serum levels do drop off, but there were some improvements that stuck. (see the labs page for ranges)

Total T came down to 11.3. Pre Clomid = 7.1, Just after Clomid = 25.4.
Free T = 330. Pre Clomid = 167. Just after Clomid = 614.
Estrogen = 85. Pre Clomid = 117 .Just after Clomid = 135.
LH and FSH did drop to about where they were before.
SHBG = 14.4. Pre Clomid = 22.2. Just after Clomid = 28.5.

So while Total T, FSH and LH did come down, my Free T was still double what it was before Clomid, Estrogen lower than before and SHBG lower than before, which explains why I was still feeling good a couple months after the protocol.

I also tested my Vitamin D levels and these came up as deficient, so I added this to my supplementation list.

So here's what's been happening with the Protocol so far:

I started 4 weeks ago. The first two weeks, the "on" part of the Clomid was, like last time, pretty horrible. I made the big mistake of timing it with an very rough period at work where I grinded through two weekends and long hours. Not a good idea. Again, the best advice I can offer is if you do this, try write your schedule light during the Clomid part of the cycle.

The main side effect I experienced was mood swings. I'm usually a very stable guy but the combination of work stress and Clomid meant my emotions were all over the place.

*Big mistake* - never do this: I missed one of the 50mg clomid doses one day and made the mistake of trying to "catch it up" the next day i.e. x3 50mg. That night I did experience some of the often reported vision side effects of Clomid. Not quite floaters, more a subtle shimmering in the corners / peripheral vision. Yes, definitely concerning. but it went away and was a result of overdosing that day.

Here is the good news:

I'm nearing the end the fourth week, the second week of the "off-Clomid" phase of the cycle. There have been *dramatic* improvements to mood, muscle growth and most importantly sexual function. Here's the protocol as it stood from weeks 3-4 (my DHEA only arrived on week 3 and I only started the supps from week 3)

x1 2.5 mg Letrazole (no Clomid for these weeks)
x 50 mg DHEA.
x 4g of L-Arginine
x 4500mg Vitamin D
x 400mg L-Cartinine
200mg Tongkat Ali
70mg Zinc
Mulitvitamin.

Again, the improvements in mood, libido, size of flaccid and erect penis, muscle mass etc has been dramatic. I've gone from really worried about this in weeks 1-2, to a total turnaround in weeks 3-4. My theory is that the kick-start from the clomid weeks was a difficult stretch but necessary, combined with the estrogen inhibition of the letrazole-only weeks, the DHEA increase from supplementation and the L-Arginine for nitric oxide / blood flow, it seems to be a potent combination for me. I've had no side effects at all on the off weeks. This fourth week is buy far the closest to "normal" I have felt in a very, very long time. Energy is high, moods are stable, but most signifcantly, sexual function seems to be returning to normal (!). I am getting morning wood again, even spontaneous erections during the day and my flaccid size is returning to former hung glory days, as opposed to the icy-water shrivelled wreck in its PFS state. I was honestly starting to worry if the size thing was permanent. It's not.

Here's something that stuck with me: I woke up the morning after my first DHEA dose, third week of letrazole-only phase, and felt a general "sexual electricity" feeling that I had honestly almost forgotten about. It's been that long. It's only when it comes back that you remember what it actaully felt like. This is a huge leap forward for me and is addressing the area I was starting to think may be permanently damaged - my sexual health.

To sum up:

The Clomid / Letrazole / DHEA and supp protocol outlined above is working for me.

Clomid is hardcore and not to be messed with. If you take too much (as I did on that one day) you will experience side-effects.

Keeping E down while on Clomid is critical.

Get cortisol, DHEA and Vitamin D checked out as well.

Eat like a horse, push heavy weights, and try go easy at work while you're doing this.

There is hope. If I can find a protocol that seems to be working, hopefully you can too.

Any questions please ask, thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:09 am 
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Age: 31
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Thanks for the update, glad things continue to go well.

Can you post the doctor's info (name, contact info etc) you are seeing so others may consider seeing him, as it sounds he's open to trying treatments for PFS.

Keep us posted. Cheers

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:10 am
Posts: 492
Age: 26
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 3 months
Started: 0- 8-2012
Stopped: 0-10-2012
Location: USA
Very glad to hear it's getting you back to normal. I wish I could see your doctor as it sounds like he really knows his stuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:34 am
Posts: 63
Age: 43
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 1 month
Started: 20 Nov 2006
Stopped: 01 Jan 2007
Location: ...
Good to see someone with good progress.

How to feel about the DHT surge? Did you have increase in hair loss now? Just want to check on 5AR activity.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:10 am
Posts: 492
Age: 26
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 3 months
Started: 0- 8-2012
Stopped: 0-10-2012
Location: USA
I think he mentioned while on clomid his hair loss ramped up, which I assume is a good sign.

I really hope your improvements stick, legendary. You must really feel like a lucky SOB for dodging the bullet after 12 years of use, haha. When I feel optimistic about recovery I always think about how much I'll appreciate life and everything in it when all this is over.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:49 pm
Posts: 1117
Age: 28
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 2 Years
Started: 01 Mar 2010
Stopped: 25 May 2012
Location: Ireland
Hi legendary,

Its good to hear your doing well.

Can you tell me if you had any beard growth issues and if so did your protocol help ?

Because of fin my beard almost doesnt grow on the left side of my face.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:02 am
Posts: 2771
Clomid restart has never worked and will never work. I can put $10,000 on the bet. our issue is totally different. Only Awor's theory is close to what has happened to us. I know people will hate me but time will decide.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:58 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:47 am
Posts: 53
Age: 34
Drug: Proscar
Usage: 12 years
Started: 01 Mar 2000
Stopped: 15 Dec 2011
Location: South Africa
Hi,

re: beard issues - I never noticed any growth issues before, so can't really comment on that one. It seems about the same.

re: DHT / Hair loss - seems to have stablised, progressing at a gradual rate again. This whole episode has put things into perspective though, so it's not a huge concern anymore. I'm buffing up again and getting my dick back, so I'm happy with the trade-off.

re: Endo - He is based in South Africa so I'm not sure how much help he would be to others on this forum. If you'd like his details please PM me.

re: "Clomid doesn't work". Helpful input, but I'll defer to my highly qualified and vastly experienced Endocrinologist on that one.

All the best


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