PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

They are quit extensive I do not know if I should post them as text too?

Current issues
- 0 libido
- Inability to handle stress
- Nausea in face of stress
- Cystic scaring back acne when not boosting cortisol
- Sensitive teeth
- Love handles
- Weak morning wood
- Digestion issues. Food seems to not be fully digested.

Only recovery I had was on low dose arimidex. This lasted a few day.

I have been doing a lot of reading and a lot of thinking.

The doctor things my iron is ok because my ferritin is not over the top. She has given me another test to take.

From what I can guess, my transcortin must be high. Low free cortisol, high rt3. THe labs messed up my test. They said they are sorting it out now.

I have searched and searched and search about what could be causing high levels of CBG. Really the only conclusion I can come too is estrogen.

If you look at my free t and compare it to my e, you can see that I must be estrogen dominant.

Also if you look at my body, you can clearly see this. I have grown love handles since taking finasteride.

This along with the fact that I had an almost full recovery while taking low dose arimidex.

With all my testing over the last couple years I have almost always taken HCG, I think this may have been a mistake as this would have stimulated testicular aromotase.

I remember talking to a doctor he said there was a study where rats who were given finasteride developed testicular problems/ cancer??

I am thinking of injecting 80mg test per week with no HCG to see what happens. Any one have any feedback on this?

If this does not work. I will do 60mg test and maybe 30mg trenbolone per week. If i can buy some.

I got my libido back on arimidex. I must be able to get it back manipulating my hormones!!! I hope.

My glycated hemaglobin indicate my blood sugar has been high over the past weeks. I guess this is a further indicator my testosterone is low considering I eat a very low gi diet and exercise every day.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/jul2007_report_diabetes_01.htm

Testosterone increases insulin sensitivity.

I think my low testosterone and high estrogen is causing all my symptoms. I recovered on arimidex this seems to disprove many complicated theories that float around this forum.

My symptoms.

Bad digestion - Improves with cortisol
Sensitive teeth - Testosterone improves bone health
Love handles - Low free cortisol - High estrogen - low test
Situation anxiety - Low free cortisol
Back / butt acne - Resolved with arimidex or cortisol / coffee (boosts cortisol)
Libido - Was fixed on arimidex
Clycated hemaglobin - Testosterone should increase insulin sensitivity so this should be lowered.
Iron - This is probably unrelated. Doctor said not a big worry because ferritin is still in range.
Red rash on testicles - When I took 10mg of hydrocortisone this went away.
Low temp - Improves with cortisol.

The questions is, where is all this estrogen coming from?

Liver? Testicles? Fat (don't have much)

My LH is low but my testicles often fell large like they are working overtime.

My liver function tests seem to be ok some metrics have gone up, some have gone down. I will keep working on improving my liver.

When i stopped injecting T and HCG i had a breif period of good morning woods. Perhaps this was because the LH was suppressed and I was running on the T i injected. Soon after this my libido was worse than ever. Probably because I was suppressed and the injected T ran out.

Ideas?

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

So perhaps 50iu EOD or E3D. Should keep my testicles from totally collapsing but should reduce total estrogens?

So perhaps I will try 40mg T e3d with 40IU HCG eod. Then do a blood test after a few weeks. I think i could be on to a winner if I get my free T in range and keep e at a good level. I know I am responsive to androgens.

Many doctors are so incompetent and sometimes even rude.

Here are explanations for my symptoms :

High eosiniphils and IgE:

Blinded analysis of LPR biopsies from cortisol-suppressed subjects revealed increases in leukocytoclasis (P less than or equal to 0.0001), interstitial leukocytes (P less than or equal to 0.01), and eosinophils (P less than or equal to 0.04). These results indicate that physiological levels of serum cortisol can regulate IgE-dependent cutaneous inflammation by affecting the expression of cellular events at late phase sites.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC443138/

Cortisol induces a migration of eosinophil leukocytes from the blood to several lymphoid organs, such as the spleen, lymph nodes and thymus, but not to other tissues. This migration explains the cortisol-induced blood eosinopenia, which is much more pronounced in intact than in splenectomized animals.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k0rv134lw2105603/

Blood UREA | BUN

Males who received testosterone had a significant increase in testosterone and bioavailable testosterone concentration, hematocrit, right hand muscle strength and osteocalcin concentration. They had a decrease in cholesterol (without a change in HDL-cholesterol) levels and decreased BUN/Creatinine ratios.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8426037

Glycated Hemoglobin

TU significantly improved metabolic control: decrease in blood glucose values and mean glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c) (from 10.4 to 8.6%).

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/tam.6.1.1.7

Glycated haemoglobin was also reduced (−0.37 ± 0.17%, P = 0.03), as was the fasting blood glucose (−1.58 ± 0.68 mmol/l, P = 0.03).

This is referring to the percent not the number i think i am at about 6%

http://www.eje-online.org/content/154/6/899.short

Lowish hemocrit:

There are many studies that will show u haemocrit increases with testosterone supplementation.


Low free cortisol :

The degree of elevation of the plasma concentrations of corticosteroid-binding globulin (CBG), β-glucuronidase and ceruloplasmin in response to estrogen administration was shown to be related, within limits, to the dose of estrogen.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/25/9/1163.short

There are other studies on this that I have posted around.

I have updates my tests. Here is a cortisol test result. On the back the out of wack DHEA:Cortisol ratio is found in people who have abnormial physiolgical responses to stress and panic attacks.

Interesting, I wonder how this might play into the puzzle that has developed in our bodies. I think its about time I go and have a new round of blood work done.

_________________
http://www.change.org/petitions/united- ... cial-agent

I am trying small doses of arimidex at the moment 0.5mg ED. So far for the 2 days my stool formation has been much better. But for some reason i have a huge cystic boil that appeard on my butt. This is wierd cause arimidex has helped clear up this before.

One think Im worried about is estrogen rebound. Something like you reduce estrogens, SHBG goes down, then estrogens go back up but because SHBG is down it can not bind to the estrogen so you get more free estrogen. I will try this PES erase with some T, maybe like 20mg E2d. And test estrogen T and SHBG. I hope this can free up some of my cortisol.

If this does not work. I will add proviron or stanazol and maybe reduce the testosterone to reduce estrogens.

If this does not work, I will try some non aromatazing anabolic hormones. Because there was one point where I had strong sexual arrousal a week or 2 into taking finasteride. This seems to indicate that the anabolic effects of testosterone may be a strong part of my libido.

I will take these along with testosterone.

I have updated my results.

I received my cortisol binding globulin back and it is not over range. It is highish. I guess you have to look at results and symptoms. I have low silivary cortisol > highish blood cortisol and highish CBG. My symproms are low cortisol like. My RT3 is also fairly high.

I found some old test from before I took finasteride a full blood count.

What is interesting is that my eosiniphils are low and in range. In all recent tests they are over range. And it is possible that the higher they are the worse some symptoms are (appetite). Cortisol suppresses eosiniphils.

My hemocrit is a bit higher on a different scale. Maybe this could be used to show lower androgen activity? But the difference is not much.

Ah, I wish I could contribute to the evaluation of your labs, vincent but I'm only just beginning my research. That's interesting about the DHEAS/Cortisol AM though. I know you mentioned it's found in people who have abnormial physiolgical responses to stress and panic attacks but are you undergoing any treatments currently to remedy this?

Well the only way my available cortisol could be low is if it is excessivly bound or the test was wrong. But I doubt the tests is wrong. My transcortin was not over range.

If my cortisol was less bound that would increase my siliva cortisol/dhea ratio and I am sure I would feel much better. The same thing that is causing bound cortisol is probably responsible for no libido, love handles and all the other problems.

I have still been injecting test was on 15mg E2D now on 20MG E2D.

I started PES Erase while I was on 15MG test, started to feel better, getting random woods, good nocternal and morning woods. Woods were coming up very often on some day. I was taking 1 pes a day.

My digestion got a lot better, stools were more formed, did not need to go urgently as soon as I woke up. Anxiety went down a lot.

Twitches have droopped by about 90%, feel better in self.

But I lost the libido effects pretty quickly. I have increased to 3 caps even 4 on one day with 0 signs of low estrogen.

Appetite has been better.

When I was on 20mg test e2d without erase I could barely eat 2 meals a down. Now most day 5 small meals go down fine.

Also when I felt better my scrotum was much less pink. I think because increased cortisol.

I think all my symptoms are related to an over influence of estrogen on my body.

I managed to have sex with 3 women when I was feeling better. First one my errection was supper hard and came up super quick. 2nd also. By the 3rd I was loosing the effect and errection slower to come up. I guess the more you push up testoserone the more pressure you put on aromataze.

I will try get some aromasin I think. If that does not work then I will try trenbolone.

Estrogen Makes Low Platelets Worse

Estrogen is a major factor in explaining why woman suffer more from low platelets or idiopathic thrombocytopenia. This type of low platelet problem is mainly caused by an excessive amount of antibodies. In this situation, the immunity is destroying your platelets.. The higher the estrogen levels in the body the more ITP Blood disorder will you have.

http://whatdoyouknowhmm.blog.com/2011/01/18/thrombocytopenia-contraception-will-make-your-low-platelets-worse/

So it seems that again the low platelets are as a result of an over influence of estrogen on my cell.

So it seems pretty much all my lab irregularitys and symptoms point to the influence of estrogen. The nest thing that has to be worked out is why, its it some kind of issue with the androgen receptor?

Why have I had 2 recoveries on anti estrogens?

Ok I am going to post my observations from all my tests so far. Perhaps this can help someone trying these options.

Natural test boosters, herbs, ziinc
- Nothing

Andriol test capsuals
- After the first dose I had one episode where I felt that I needed to masterbate. This is not normal for me since taking finasteride.

Proviron at various doses with HCG I think
- No effect

HCG By itself
-I can not remember any significant changes

HCG with androhard, hcg was dosed at less than 500iu per dose every second day
- Nothing

HCG with large doses of test. Up to 350mg per week.
- Back acne
- Grew more hair on my chest (Androgen receptors must be ok?)
- Do not remember getting much stronger.
- I remember when coming of my libido hit a new low. Was unable to get wood with a girl.
- Do not remember to many other changes.
- Very sweaty forehead when exercising.

Arimidex at .1mg E2D
- Almost total recovery for a few days.
- Every thing better. Had some points where libdo was really high.
- After about 6 days I remember feeling worse. Like all I could do was lie in bed and had lots of anxietyO(increase in free estrogen).

Testosterone at low doses IM 32.5mg e3d
- At first had great feelings of well being and super energy.
- Appetite went up.
- This lasted 8 days. After 8 days I totally lost my appetite. Felt full in my stomach like i could not eat.
- But acne / back acne cleared up.

Testosterone 17.5mg E2D subq.
- Felt crap.
- Ance came back
- appetite 0
- felt tired.
- When I skipped the dose I felt like TOTAL crap. My digestion was the worst ever. had to run to the toilet in the morning and had stomach pains..
- All this because increased estrogens?
- As soon as I changed back to IM shots I started feeling better.


PES Erase and 15MG Test e2d
- Got a few pimples on my face to start and also on chest which is something new for me.
- Anxiety went down at first.
- At start was getting wood just from talking to women.
- Digestion was bit better.
- After a few days had some libod
- After 10 days lose most of the good effets.
- Highe e2 symoptoms came back, mild depression, full stomach feeling, pimples.
- Joint pains in finger fell better.
- Some mild improvements when upping the ERASE and Test.
- Had some times of good wood.
- When upping the T got sweaty forehead again.
- Left testicle was sore where there is a little bump on it when upping the dose of erase.
- Some improvemets of appetite on more PES Erase.

50mg test E2D with some arimidex

- Was able to get some wood easier when meetin giorls
- When I upped dose of arimidex to .4mg in one day felt aggression in my head like I wanted to break anyone I saw in half.
- Got some libiodo
- Sperm looks thick and sticky
- Some woods from just thinking about sex.
- Started getting sick and maybe a wart on my skin/??
- Some wood where you have to bend over to pee.
- When i Took .7mg of arimidex I felt depression. Next day was fine and digestion was much better.


Progesterone Cream
Not too much

Pregnenolone cream
- After a while it gave me serious depression making me wana end it and felt sad (estrongen?)
- Gave me some heart pains


DHEA
- Gave me lots of twitches asn pain in chest.


Cotisol
- Only took it once and it seemed anxiety went up
- Scrotum lost its redness
- Lost appetite.

I took one injection of trenbolone acetate only a small amount about 10mls i think. I got a pain in my back on the right shortly after, that night sleep have have been slightly affected.

Because of the pain I stopped.

I took 50mg of boldenone the other day with no test. Felt pretty good after the shot. But the next day I had lost my appetite. I was also taking proviron with it.

So no drammatic improvement. I would like to further test the tren to work out if our androgen receptors are still working but I don;t want to fuck something else.

Did test prop 15mg e2d from the 1st to the 14thth - Felt better in most areas for the first 10 days. Even seemed to increase my lifts on various exercises. I took erase on some days too. But after about 10 days i got this full stomach feeling. This happened after about 8 on test E. I logged that here. When it gets to this can not really eat much.

On this had a few times were agression came back.

Had one night with painful morning wood.

A few times on the day of the shot sleep was affected.

Nothing major had a little libido at a few stages.

Comming off felt pretty bad for a day or so. Tonioght will be my 4th night with no injection. The test should be cleared out by now.

I have updated my tests. The last tests were done by a Thai lab. Some of the ranges were hand written so I am not sure how reliable they are. But they were taken a number of days after quiting test prop. I did not feel good around this time. Count not eat much at all really tired. Bad depression. Thoughts of suicide. Felt sad.

I started some aromasin a few days after that and things improved. Appetite was improved. But now I seem to have lost the improvements and have gone back to having the low appetite and full stomach feeling. I am not sure if it is low e or still to high e with low t.

What is interesting is that my cortisol is again fine. This does not match with my sympotoms. My symptoms are of low free cortisol. And siliva cortisol has been tested low 2 times now. Blood 4 times at it is always good.

Some of my red blood cell counts have moved up. This could have been from the test prop.

SHGB Seems to be higher. Why? Less t binding to it?

Progesterone seems to be over range? The range was handwritten so who knows.

Eosiniphils are measured as a percentage this time and seem in range for the first time.

Test was very low. Free test must have been super low.

Test / e2 ratio looks very bad explains why I felt sad and emotional.

I will keep taking aromasin. I can not really explan the low free cortisol. But I think it must be an indicator anabolic hormones. I would say the body tries to keep a balance between anabolic hormones and catabolic hormones if not our body would break down its tissues too fast.

I am pretty sure my gums got worse when my test was that low. It started hurting when brushing. Looks like the gums reeceded more during this time.

It was hard to get out of bed in the morning on these days.

Vincent, I'm sure this poison is the reason I now have Gingivitis. My gums and teeth hurt every so often and also look a tad receded which is annoying because I brush twice daily and (now) floss on average every other day to try and heal them (to seemingly little avail).

Now you say you're suffering from low cortisol issues but your cortisol is testing fine...your most recent cortisol, was it saliva, or was it blood? Because I've learned from you that the saliva lab is the important one because it measures free cortisol, making the blood lab less important because it measures total cortisol. If you had a normal blood cortisol reading--and not a recent saliva reading--there would obviously be the reason that you're still experiencing low cortisol issues. Just checking because I'm pretty certain low free cortisol is what makes my life unbearable for a few straight hours in the evening...and pretty pathetic at other times in the day.

Yes the latest was blood cortisol. Which was ok even though my testosterone was very out of range low. I have no reason to think that my free cortisol has changed. It has been tested twice and very low each time . The question is why is my free cortisol so low. My transcortin was highish but not out of range. Another guy on here had tested high for transcortin. The only think I can find that increases transcortin is estrogen or maybe liver problems. But my liver seems to be fine.

But I do think low free cortisol can make you feel shit. If it is too low you die.

Ok here are some more observations.

I quite test about 1 month ago. After quiting i felt really bad. I cried. I was having very strong suicide thoughts that would not leave my head. I did a blood test not long after quiting see above. Appetite was crap.

I felt all i wanted to do was stay in bed. I looked forward to going to bed.
When I woke up in the morning I felt stuck in bed like I had 0 energy to get out of bed. Just wanted to lie in bed.

Felt emotional and very sad not long after quioting the test p.

My gap in my gums that occoured over the last couple years got much worse and painful to brush a few days after quiting.

On one day took 10mg aromasin. Noticed I started feeling better. My night wood seemed to improve and energy better. Stool formation even better.

Notice some oil water on nose..

Took 10g more the next day seemed to improve appetit a bit.

Appetite and energy better. Day after mood better energy better.

Got some lower back pain after a few days.

Noticed more improvements in appetite when take aromasin.

Seemed to loose the benefits after a while.

Pimples have came back since quiting T.

When not taking anything fatige can be overpowering I become basically useless.

But there seems to be a link to aromasin usage and
Better mood
Better digestion
Better appetite
Feelings of aggression.

But they do not seem to last.