PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

Forum for men with PERSISTENT sexual, mental & physical side effects which CONTINUE DESPITE QUITTING Finasteride (Propecia, Proscar), a 5AR inhibitor drug for hair loss, prostate enlargement & prostate cancer.
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 Post subject: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:03 am 
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Age: 23
Drug: Propecia
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Started: 19 Jul 2010
Stopped: 15 Sep 2010
Location: Michigan
Okay, so I've recently rounded up the labs I had taken back in June (though they're incomplete, they're a good basis for comparison, I believe). I also have the two different sets (also not complete, I'll have to get the rest of the values I asked for the next time I go in) that I recently had drawn. What concerns me is that my doctor was concerned there might be something awry with my pituitary gland (because of the excessive prolactin) but I've researched this a little bit and I'm hoping that my situation may be more of a hypothyroidism issue versus a pituitary gland issue. He had my blood drawn today to compare the two results to see if it's still That elevated because he said many factors could've driven it up there. But here we are...any and all opinions are extremely welcome and I'll try to complete my set of values as soon as I can.

6/21/2011 at 15:40 (3:40 p.m.):

FSH 3.1 (1.5 - 12.4) mIU/mL (low, right?)
LH 4.5 (1.7 - 8.6) mIU/mL (lowish?)
Prolactin 14.1 (4.0 - 15.2) ng/mL (high)
SHBG 35 (10 - 80) nmol/L
Testosterone 608 (280 - 800) ng/dL (low for my age-23)
Fr. Testo Calc. 20.1 (12.0 - 25.0) pg/mL (this value being "high" confuses me like no other)
TSH (3rd Gen.) 0.74 (0.3 - 4.20) uU/mL (low, right?)
TT4 8.1 (4.3 - 12.1) ug/dL
% uptake 34 (24 - 39) % (high, right?)

other labs drawn 6/21/2011
Urea N (BUN) 16 (6 - 20) mg/dL
Creatinine 0.9 (0.7 - 1.3) mg/dL
Glucose 78 (74 - 200) mg/dL (seems low but shouldn't be too significant...right?)
Calcium 9.2 (8.5 - 10.5) mg/dL
Sodium 139 (135 - 145) mmol/L
Potassium 4.2 (3.5 - 5.0) mmol/L
Chloride 100 (98 - 109) mmol/L
CO2 27 (22 - 34) mmol/L
Total Protein 7.1 (6.0 - 8.0) g/dL
Albumin 4.6 (3.6 - 5.5) g/dL
Alk. Phos. 56 (20 - 125) IU/L
Alt (SGPT) 13 (0 - 40) IU/L
Ast (SGOT) 17 (0 - 35) IU/L
Direct Bili. 0.3 (0.0 - 0.4) mg/dL
Total Bili. 0.8 (0.0 - 1.5) mg/dL


1/27/2012 at 10:45 (limited results):

SHBG 24 (10 - 80) nmol/L (normal!)
Testosterone 405 (280 - 800) ng/dL (incredibly low for my age-23)
Fr. Testo Calc. 19.6 (12.0 - 25.0) pg/mL (still incredibly high for not seeming to manifest itself)


2/24/2012 at 9:10 (limited results...but will obtain the rest as soon as possible):

FSH 3.4 (1.5 - 12.4) mIU/mL (low...right?)
LH 5.0 (1.7 - 8.6) mIU/mL
Prolactin 25.3 (4.0 - 15.2) ng/mL (really, really high)
SHBG 27 (10 - 80) nmol/L
Testosterone 487 (280 - 800) ng/dL (really low for my age-23)
Fr. Testo Calc. 20.8 (12.0 - 25.0) pg/mL (why does this have to be so confusingly high?)
TSH (3rd Gen.) 1.67 (0.30 - 4.20) uU/mL
TT4 6.4 (4.3 - 12.1) ug/dL
% uptake 34 (24 - 39) % (still high, right?)
Androstenedione 4.2 (0.3 - 2.6) ng/mL (considerably high)
DHT 403.0 (112 - 955) pg/mL
Cortisol AM 23.07 (4.30 - 22.40) ug/dL (high)
T3 % uptake 37.2 (22.0 - 37.0) % (high)
T3 total 1.23 (0.60 - 1.81) ng/mL
Estradiol (E2) 37.06 (0 - 52) pg/mL (highish)

other labs drawn 2/24/2012
Glucose 87 (74 - 200) mg/dL


As I mentioned before any extra labs I can round up, I will. In a few weeks I'll have a better understanding of what's going on with my Prolactin. Again, any opinions/ideas regarding my lab results are highly welcomed. Thanks guys.


Last edited by martinM on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: !
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:10 am 
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Your FSH/LH are fine those don't need to be high in fact if your LH is low and your test is on the high side that is better.

600ish testosterone (from your first test, isn't bad...)


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Age: 23
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Location: Michigan
Thanks for the feedback, Broken! I knew my last two tests levels of test were very low...especially since it's felt like I've had no testosterone in my system for the past year or so but my doctor kept trying to convince me that some of these values (speaking on testosterone especially) can be affected by so many variables and that it's not saying a whole lot reading into two low values because they could actually be higher taken at a different time of day

He also reassured me that they were "within range"...I'm so tired of that response. I proceded to tell him the range is for 18-80 year olds and that I should be in the upper third of that range since I'm so young (23). He kind of dismissed my concern and wanted to focus more on the prolactin...because he was concerned I could have a pituitary problem...regardless, my test is way too incredibly low and it's taking a lot out of me to wake up each day realizing it's going to be a lot tougher than it used to be.

My question though...does anyone know why my free test being in the 20's when the high end is 25 would render me with shrunken testicles? I was told by the first urologist I saw that that value largely determines what my boys look like (i.e. shape and size). And yet, it's pretty high and my boys are probably about half the size they used to be. Is there any theory suggesting something blocking the free test from achieving its goal? Or is this just part of that whole "androgen insensitivity theory"...that one just sounds horrible. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:23 pm 
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Quote:
My question though...does anyone know why my free test being in the 20's when the high end is 25 would render me with shrunken testicles? I was told by the first urologist I saw that that value largely determines what my boys look like (i.e. shape and size). And yet, it's pretty high and my boys are probably about half the size they used to be. Is there any theory suggesting something blocking the free test from achieving its goal?

Im not sure wether what your uro told you is right all the time (free test being directly correlated to testicles size) but you sure misunderstood something : the "goal" of test isnt to increase your balls size. LH does this. And in turn your balls produce Test. If you take exogenous test, your ball size will decrease (negative feedback mechanism : more test-->less gnrh-->less LH--->testicles shrink=less T). If you take HCG (LH analog) your nuts size will increase (LH stimulates the Leydig cells to produce test).
Your uro meant that your balls size is representative of your free test, not that your ball size is dependant on free test.

Here is a little diagram that should help you understand better. This is something you should have know about!

http://www.biog1105-1106.org/demos/105/unit8/media/testosterone-control-of.jpg


http://www.biog1105-1106.org/demos/105/unit8/media/testosterone-feedback.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:56 am 
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Age: 23
Drug: Propecia
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Started: 19 Jul 2010
Stopped: 15 Sep 2010
Location: Michigan
Awesome, thank you venceremos! That actually just buoyed my spirits a little bit. I'm sure I just misinterpreted what my original urologist told me but that's encouraging. I've read up a lot on hCG and was actually hoping to get started on a low dose of it as soon as I possibly could but then realized that the best possible course was slow and steady.

I know that I've lost a lot of sensation due to the size difference of my nuts and am hopeful that I will soon be on a doctor prescribed treatment to fix that problem but first I've got to get my Prolactin level checked again. Can't wait to post with my results. Thanks again for reading and responding guys!


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:13 am 
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Hey man,

Could you list symptoms or link to your profile?

Are you tired? Fatigue? You have high blood cortisol. If you are still tried you prob have low free cortisol? You should do a silivary test for cortisol and or bloods for transcortin/cortisol.

Your bloods look like mine. Most people around the net will say that you should get estradiol to 20. The amount of free test and estradiol in the body is similar so I suspect if these 2 are out of balance you will have troubles.

Your labs are like mine.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:43 am 
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Age: 23
Drug: Propecia
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Started: 19 Jul 2010
Stopped: 15 Sep 2010
Location: Michigan
For sure Vincent.

My most obvious symptoms are the sexual sides...shrunken testicles (probably about half the size they used to be), never achieve a spontaneous erection (used to get them all the time), decreased libido (could probably go two or three weeks without masturbating...and I usually only end up doing it as a somewhat forced stress reliever), somewhat weaker erections (when they occur they're usually pretty strong), decreased ejaculate (considerably less and sometimes clear)

My just as apparent but somewhat less depressing mental sides...short term memory loss (I used to have the best memory of anyone I knew but now I find myself forgetting much of what people tell me and things I'm supposed to do...it's hitting me at work and school and it's really starting to depress me/get on my nerves), forgetfulness (pretty much an offshoot of short term memory loss but sometimes I'll have decent short term memory but be entirely forgetful...either way, both of these sides suck big time)

My nonsexual physical sides...quick fatigue (I've never had good stamina but I'm putting in an "average" effort at work nowadays and it's taking the same toll of me putting in a good day about this time a year ago), muscle wastage (lost muscle all over my body which is incredibly frustrating because I've always been skinny anyway and now I'm skinnier, weaker, and struggling to put more weight (muscle) on...early results from working out and eating healthier for the past few weeks are encouraging because the muscles are gaining definition (hoping if I keep up the routine that it's permanent) but they aren't getting any bigger which is my goal right now), early signs of what seems like arthritis or something (some of my joints are achier than others, most especially my fingers...I feel like it's because I don't have as much testosterone in my body so any damage my body is taking is actually being felt and absorbed now...but it's frustrating because my fingers feel stiff, sore, and listless sometimes), numbness whenever I sleep on my arms (if I sleep on my arm, I wake up without any feeling in that arm...so I have to pick it up and drop it to move it around to get some movement in it...I used to wake up and panic because I thought I had a stroke or paralysis in my arm but once I realized what was occurring I learned to not fall asleep on my arms...--now before anyone says, well that's obvious, I mean to say I used to do this all the time and nothing would ever happen...I'm sure it's because there's almost no muscle (like there used to be) to get in the way of my head cutting off the nerves, which is way too annoying--), parts of my body (mostly limbs) falling asleep way too easily (it used to only happen whenever I cut off the circulation or the nerves for an extended period of time but now it's like after only 15 or so minutes)

Okay, these are the only ones coming to mind right this moment...if I can think of any others, which I'm sure I can, I'll list them. I thought my estradiol was pretty high. I'm thinking of getting back on a zinc supplement I was taking. I'll talk to my urologist when I see him in a couple of weeks and I'll have to get the test and labs you suggested for cortisol. Thanks for your feedback man!


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:15 am 
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You said:

quick fatigue (I've never had good stamina but I'm putting in an "average" effort at work nowadays and it's taking the same toll of me putting in a good day about this time a year ago

How does this feel? Please explain it a bit more.

Your blood cortisol is very high this should usually give you good energy. My free cortisol was very low. I did a siliva test.

If your having the feeling like your "battery" has died I would day you have low free cortisol.

I really suggest you do a silivary cortisol profile and a cortisol/transcortin test. Taking cortisol fixed my energy but it is not really good to take.

When you have a coffee does that increase your energy? Coffee boosts cortisol.

Your estrogen does seem high. Most will agree that you need to aim for 20.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:26 am 
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Stopped: 15 Sep 2010
Location: Michigan
Sorry for the delay vincent.

What I meant by the fatigue is that when I put what used to be an average amount of effort in at work, my body feels taxed as if I had overworked it. My muscles get pretty sore and achy. Because of the muscle loss, I can feel extra strain whenever I pull patients from their beds onto the carts on which we transport them. I also run out of breath a lot sooner than I used to.

Putting in a "good" effort at work is almost impossible for me nowadays as it would require me to nearly break my body to do so. Just as an example, I used to move 25-30 patients a day with ease. Now I move 15-20 patients and oftentimes it's a struggle.

I don't drink coffee because anything even related to coffee disgusts me. I'm sure each of these values from the labs has some correlation to my weakness/fatigue but I'm almost positive my greatly diminished testosterone level is the main culprit. I'm mostly concerned with whatever I can do to get that back to a normal level and to keep it there. So I will see how my prolactin is measuring up, ask about getting the tests you mentioned, and about any possible hypo/hyper thyroid issues (because I feel they Could be an avenue worth looking into), and lastly, if my doctor allows, I would like to try Clomid and arimidex...with hCG lurking as a last resort...I will NOT undergo lifelong trt.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:38 am 
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You can order a siliva cortisol over the net without a doctor. About 100 bucks. I would bet yours are not optimal if you are feeling like this. Testosterone may also help. I feel much more energy since injecting but appetite went up and then down.

HCG is probably the safest. If HCG does not work. I doubt clomid will.

CLOMID and Arimidex are more risking than HCG. Arimidex is less risky than clomid.

Clomid is not a good option as it has meany other effects rather than just boosting testosterone.

You do not need to go on TRT for life. You can do a trial and see how you feel. If you want to ensure your testicals do not totally shut down simplyt ake very small doses of HCG. 50IU every few days. When we are pre pubesent we have very low HCG for many years.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Location: Michigan
I thought Clomid was safer than hCG but that's encouraging to hear. Should I ask to go on hCG before Clomid then?

Is the siliva cortisol test easy to administer/have read? Or is it a drawn out process?

Thanks again for your feedback man


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:20 pm 
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First you should do a blood test of cortisol and cortisol binding globulin from a doctor and or find a lab online where you can order the siliva kit. They send you 4 tubes you fill them with siliva every 4 hours and then post them back. Pretty easy.

As your free test seem ok in the range, I would not try clomid or HCG first. Your first bet would be to lower estrogen 15 points or so. The reccomended level seems to be 20. Now I am not sure how valid this is but lots of people say that there is a very small sweet spot with estrogen. When you decrease estrogen you should decrease SHBG and increase testosterone, this will bring up your free testosterone. If you use HCG you will probably just end up with more testosterone but more estrogen.

I have been speaking to a guy called robocopp who had our problems, he now has to take aromasin every day and that makes him feel good. He takes about 25mg a day. I also had a 5 day recovery on arimidex. Libido came back strong. But was unable to repeat.

So you could try some anti estrogens.

Here are some you can try.
High doses of zinc 15 - 15mg.
Aromasin | exemestane - You can buy this online or get it from your doctor.
Arimidex | anastrozole - Buy it online or get it from your doctor.
Cell formestane - Buy online - transdermal cream.
PES Erase - Buy online (not sure about this one, not well known)

I think this would be your best option to start with and pretty easy to do. Risks are not so big.

The cortisol siliva would help verify if estrogens are causing some of your problems.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:44 pm 
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your estradiol is much higher than your SHBG (almost 2 times), you probably have very high levels of free estrogens.

You can try getting a sensitive estrogen test or perhaps a siliva test which can measure free estradiol.

Testing transcortin may be able to determine if you estrogens are too high too.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Thank you for responding with so much information vincent. Do you happen to know how quickly the results come back to you regarding the siliva test? And regarding transcortin, can I have measured when I have my bloods drawn? The next drawing I schedule which should be soon will incorporate cortisol and cortisol binding globulin, at a minimum. Have you ordered a siliva test before...and if so, where from?


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Im in australia, transcortin takes 4 weeks to do. Siliva is quick. If you are in america I think you can use ZRT labs. Their are probably others around too.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:07 am 
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Diurnal Cortisol (C1, C2, C3, C4) (Saliva) Recommended with situational stress and fatigue; indicator of adrenal imbalance. Tests morning, noon, evening, and nighttime Cortisol.

That's the description of the Saliva Cortisol via ZRT Labs...is this sufficient, Vincent? And would a urologist be able to set this up for me so that I wouldn't have to order it online, like couldn't I get the vials from my urologist, fill them, and then take them back in? It just seems a little pricey for one lab value when I've gotten many others drawn for a fraction of the cost. Ahhhh, I wish I lived in Australia.


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:46 am 
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That is the one, often they test DHEA too.

You may be able to find another site that does it cheaper. Most doctors only know about blood tests. You can get him to do freecorotisol / transcortin / cortisol. He prob wont know about siliva testing. I am doing better since lowering my estrogen with "PES Erase".


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:29 am 
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Location: Michigan
Thank you, and that's awesome to hear, vincent! How much are you taking of the PES Erase and how often? I feel like lowering my "e" is the logical first step and if you're having success with that one then I'll consider it. Are there any sides I should know about?


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:14 am 
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Im taking 1 a day. Im also taking 15mg Test E every 2nd day. It also can lower cortsiol but I think it is freeing up a lot of cortisol so unbound cortisol has increased. So far so good. All my problems have improved 70%+

I did notice i felt a little sleepy after the dose on the first 2 days but now do not get that. I assume it is because it toook a few days to lower my estrogen and bring my free cortsiol up. I will stay on 1 a day for a few weeks and then reassess


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 Post subject: Re: ! - my labs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:28 am 
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Stopped: 15 Sep 2010
Location: Michigan
That's great. I'm not quite at the point where I'm feeling like trying a run of testosterone injections but I havent ruled out a short-term run with them. Since my boys have shrunk because of Propecia, would it be unwise to take test injections lest they shrink some more? I can't handle them getting any smaller than they are. This is quite possibly the most nagging side I've had to deal with.


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