PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

Kindof a bit random, but I got bloodwork results back last week.

Hopefully this give some insight...

Just to recap, initial results back in September (3:30pm) were as follows:
Free T 342 [240-950] ng/dL
Prolactin 12 [3-13] ng/ml

Hollween Results (7:30 am) were as follows:
Free T 152.6 [21.0-135.0] pg/mL !?!
BioAvail T 358 [48-317] ng/dL !?!
SHBG 51 [9-54] nmol/L :(
TSH 1.80 [0.35 - 4.0] uIU/mL :)
Prolactin 8.5 ng/mL [2.1-17.7] :)

I have another doctor appt next week. I will insist on another round of testing that includes:
DHT, Adiol-G, Estradiol, LH, FSH, an adrenal screen, and more of the thyroid hormones.

Interestingly, for the Holloween results I fapped the night before, and once per day for the 3 days prior. Initial results I was celebate for 1.5 weeks. This is kindof contrardictory to some of the research I've been doing on these forums. Doing research on these forums does not seem to help my mental stability.

Based on these results and the way that I have been feeling, I think that my 5AR activity remains significantly suppressed; the net result is high T and Estradiol (high range SHBG supports this), along with persisting mental side effects due to neurosteroid starvation. I feel like the 5AR inhibition has also messed permanently with my adrenals since I am incapable of relaxing. Balls are still at about 70% nominal. Testicular pain & tingling still persist, though frequency seems to have diminished since June.

Also, I stopped exercising completely for about 3 weeks and began eating more / consuming more beer, and I increased fap frequency as a side experiment. This has NOT helped my condition. Anxiety has increased, mental capacity has decreased, and I now wake up randomly in the middle of the night.

The Levitra seems to work very well.

Good news. Testicular ultrasound results came in, and the assessment is that everything is normal. The dimensional size is also healthy, which surprised me since I'm prertty sure the finasteride caused atrophy. Regardless, they definitely seem to hang much lower than normal.

Data is as follows:
R(4.9x3.2x2.3)cm L(4.8x2.9x2.4)cm No focal lesions

Epididymides: normal

Hydrocele: Small simple bilateral hydroceles.
Varicocele: Slightly prominent vesssles on the left only measuring 2mm in dia. w/ Valsalva, not meeting criteria for variacocele.

Parenchyma: normal



I ran the whole "permanent suppression of 5-ar enzyme activty" theory bt my GP and he seemed receptive, and took me seriously. His take on this whole thing was kindof sobering, and painfully logical. He thinks that regardless of what tests are run and what data is gathered, there is no such thing as "reverse finasteride." and any damage that may have been done will either reverse itself, or I will be permanently afflicted. I think he is correct. I still want to identify root cause of this whole thing...

I was able to secure an appt. with an Endocrinologist on the basis of my high-T test results. My GP seems to think its a good idea to get a specialist's opinion on this matter, which makes good sense to me. The appt. is just before Christmas, I will post an update once I give him the download.

Though I have experienced a slight uptick in libido (actually had a few spontaneous daytimes 2 days in a row last week), and my T-pain has subsided; my cognative symptoms have hit an all time low. I get scared/anxious for no reason at times. I am having difficulty focusing on anything. Speech and communication are difficult. I am having trouble sleeping. Cutting caffiene alltogether has not helped one bit; I frequently pop awake around 4am. After deciding to go to the gym again and running, I have developed backpain unlike anything I have experienced before - the pain is literally from my taibone to the top of my neck - wich is very scary. I do not experience joy.

Really I hope these mental sides begin to weaken over time like some people have reported. This truely is a nightmare and my heart goes out to everyone else in the same boat.

Latest blood test results (2/3/2012):


Testosterone, Free 10.3 [9.3-26.5] pg/mL
Testosterone, Total 623 [348-1197] pg/dL
DHT 62 [30-85] ng/dL

3-Adiol-G 244[190-900] ng/dL

LH 3.1 [1.7-8.6] mIU/mL
FSH 2 [1.5-12.4] mIU/mL

Estradiol 13.6 [7.6-42.6] pg/ml
Estrogens, total 81 [40-115] pg/mL
Prolactin 6.5 [4.0-15.2] ng/ml

TSH 1.120 [.45-4.5] uIU/ml
T4, Free 2.2 [2-4.4] pg/ml
T3, Free 1.38 [.82-1.77] ng/dL
RT3 26 [13.5-34.2] ng/dL

That is very low. Free T is what is available to the body ("unbound"), so it is an important marker of androgenicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone




Similar results as many others on this site -- very low. This is a very important marker for our problem that many men share.

Any thoughts from your doctor?

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Agreed - these are definitely NOT appropriate readings for an otherwise-healthy 26-year-old male....

Unfortunately my GP was dragging his legs a bit - since my initial tests that were paid for by insurance came back normal (actually above the range for free T; total T) so he basically had no case to make to the insurance company. Testicular ultrasound and thyroid ultrasound also came back normal. With nothing to go on and feeling that something was clearly wrong, I had no other choice but to pay for these tests out of pocket. Thanks, Mew, for providing a link to Private MD Labs. They were able to issue requisitions for whatever I wanted to test.

Meanwhile, i have an appt. with my GP for early March. I will see what he says then, but I have a feeling that I pretty much already know. He will probably acknowledge that I have a problem, and recommend that I see a doctor familiar with treating this condition. But really, I dont know if treatment is something that I want to seek at the moment. Dr. Shippen practices about 40 mins from where I'm based. I will be making an appt. with him to see what his thoughts are.

Right now, I really don't want to pursue treatment. From what I've read, it seems like playing with fire. My goal is to get plenty of sleep, exercise and good nutrition. Hopefully the "time heals all wounds" mentality will hold true.

...Then again, I'm 14 months off Finasteride and the numbers look pretty abysmal.

Thanks for your help.

hmm you only took fin for 10 days?

Yuuuuuuup. It was somewhere betweeen 10 days and 2 weeks actually. Pretty sure it was about 10 though.

I stopped when I noticed physical pain in my nuts.


Update: Unfortunately, my GP doesn't seen to hold much stock in hormone blood tests. Since they are just a very small view of a constantly changing system, he thinks it is very difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from them - especially if the results fall within "normal" range.

It's clear that my options are either: (1) make an appt. with Dr. Shippen and experiment around with additional testing and treatments. (2) get private (OOP) testing every 4-6 months and attempt a natural recovery.

I just had some new lab test results come in. I will post the last set of tests that I had, along with the most recent tests to see if any progress / regression can be tracked:

______________________________________________________

blood test results (2/3/2012) ~ 7:30 am:

Testosterone, Free 10.3 [9.3-26.5] pg/mL
Testosterone, Total 623 [348-1197] ng/dL
DHT 62 [30-85] ng/dL

3-Adiol-G 244[190-900] ng/dL

LH 3.1 [1.7-8.6] mIU/mL
FSH 2 [1.5-12.4] mIU/mL

Estradiol 13.6 [7.6-42.6] pg/ml
Estrogens, total 81 [40-115] pg/mL

___________________________________________________________

Latest blood test results (9/12/12) ~ 7:30 am:

Testosterone, Free 17.0 [9.3-26.5] pg/mL (increased)
Testosterone, Total 876 [348-1197] ng/dL (increased)
Androstenedione 134 [44-186] ng/dL (...)
3-Adiol-G 359[190-900] ng/dL (increased)
PSA 1.5 [0-4.0] ng/mL (...)

LH 3.6 [1.7-8.6] mIU/mL (increased)
FSH 1.9 [1.5-12.4] mIU/mL (decreased)

SHBG 57.3 [16.5-55.9] nmol/L (...)
Estradiol 34.7 [7.6-42.6] pg/ml ( increased)
Estrone 87 [12-72] pg/ml (...)
Estrogens, Total 152 [40-115] pg/ml (increased)

Cortisol (AM Serum) 18.6 [8.3-19.4] ug/dL (...)
ACTH 28.3 [7.2-63.3] pg/mL (...)

Vitamin D 47.9 [30.0-100.0] ng/mL (...)
Creatine Kinase 137 [24-204] U/L (...)


Symptom set the day of the blood draw:
- Brainfog, anxiety, dizziness, headache, 10% normal libido, 85% erection strength, slightly reduced ejaculate volume, high viscosity, fatigue, cognative deficit, sadness, muscle twitching, muscle weakness, joint cracking/pain, I know I'm forgetting some...

Other notes: Was able to get a decent erection before draw. Got 7hrs of sleep (slept poorly previous 3 nights). Relatively intense regular cardio exercise.

age: 27; wt: 155; average build - can run like a boss; caucasian

The effects of finasteride on scalp skin and serum androgen levels in men with androgenetic alopecia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10495374

_________________
"Pituitary Gland Not Function As It Should To Low Androgens - Low Test, Low LH, Low FSH, Low HGH"

Do you think its all that estrogen? I mean your symptoms say high estrogen and your tests also say it.

I have many of the syptoms you mentioned and have made them all worse at times.

You mention a pain in your nuts. Do you notice any changes there? Small bumps?

I honestly don't know right now. To make an educated guess, I would need to go on an aromatase inhibitor for a bit, take some additional tests, and see if any of these sides improve. From the research that I have done, estrogen certainly doesn't help the situation.

Maybe inhibiting 5AR threw my DHT out of whack on the tissue level, causing a spike in E. Next my body responded to the excess E by secreting many SHBGlobins, consequently reducing free T and causing all kinds of badness.



I am sorry vin; this symptom set really sucks hard. Please let me know what you did to "make them all worse" so I can avoid doing that... maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Regarding my balls: I have noticed some very minor changes over time. I think overall, I may have gained some size back, but they are still signaficantly smaller than they were prefin and I still have a lot of excess sack (they hang too damn low). They do appear somewhat normal after working out / before dropping the off the kids. The awkward tingling down there seems to also be decreasing in frequency of occuarnce also. Recently they seem to be colder than usual, which is strange. I believe the amount of scrotal hair has decreased, and I have developed a few strange veins that I don't think were there before.

I do have some bumpy features on either side of each testicle; my balls are definitely not spherical. These bumps are more pronounced when my balls are hanging low. A urologist looked at my balls and said that these bumps were an evolutionary vestige of something, and were completely normal. For some reson, I think that I remember him saying they would end up turning into ovaries in a female zygote, but I could be remembering incorrectly.

Moving forward I will try to pay more attention to my balls.

Eveything got worse when I quit testosterone and my total test was below range while my estrogen was in range. You mention sadness. I cried then. I felt like total shit. Eveything got worse. All my sides got worse.

The reason I mention about the testicles is I have 2 small little bumps on the left testicle and I read this - cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/5/9/510.full.pdf

This seems to suggest that their are tumors that can produce estrogen. You also mention testicular pain when you were on fin. Anyway just mentioning it. I do not know what the links are. But I would like to know what is causing the pain. Many have mentioned it. Is it just simple a change in LH levels?

How is your digestion?

Can you do a youtube video explaning your story? To help spread the word?

Interesting that all of your sides got worse in the midst of a severe hormonal imbalance. I really would like to know what amount of my mental sides are due to hormonal imbalances vs. potential brain damage.

I honestly think that you may be on to something with the testis generating too much estrogen. I know that I have a low body fat percentage, so it couldn't possibly be due to aromatase in adipose tissue, right? I mean, the testis also produce estrogen. So, if they have an abnormal geometry, and my ejaculate is abnormal, then it would also make sense that their hormonal secretions are way off.

What I am saying is that I suspect that the fact that my E is way too high, my testis look shitty, and my ejac is stringy are all linked. Something is definitely very wrong down there...

My digestion seems fine / acceptable at least. I do get those "poo pellets" from time to time, but they aren't too commmon. I'm pretty sure I also got them pre-fin.

Maybe I will work on a video when my time frees up...

I seriously dount any brain changes.

Explain these things.

On TRT Starting with HCG and Inject-able testosterone I felt no major changes in the first week.I stopped after a couple months.
- But when I went up to high dose, I grew more body hair facial hair and hairloss on top of my head and acne on back started getting much worse.

8 months l suspected maybe something to do with the testicles I took TRT without HCG. First week felt great. I logged it here play by play if you want proof. But my libido did not come back really but just felt great. Appetite was back. Wellbeing and vigor was back. But then after about 10 days.. all benefits work gone and some things were worse.

Another 2 times I have lowerd estrogen and libido recovered night time wood was crazy. Wood went up in seconds with women, didnt go down for a while after sex. Well being back appetite better. During the second time. A little bump that I have in my balls started hurting a lot.

There is no brain damage, every symptom you are experiencing is from one root problem. Most guys here have too low testosterone and too low test and too low LH. Why isnt the piturity saying we need to make more hormones. Some will tell you maybe there are celuar changes to the piturity, if that is the case there are cceluar changes to almost every androgen dependent tissue in our body. I find this very very hard to believe. The fact is that people with estrogen producing leydig tumors will get our problems. They are very rare. But can it help shed some light on the situation?

I guess there are a few ways to self test. Lower estrogen see how you feel - boost T see how you feel. Do bloods.

Apart from that I would like an explanation of why we have low T and low LH. That does not involve cellular changes to the pituritry or hypothalamus gland. If we have changes in these we have changes in every cell including fat cells in our body.